CAMPAIGN FOR THE PROTECTION OF WELSH FISHERIES

[clwydman]

CFF
Asa someone who fishes on the river Clwyd in North Wales and spent many years fishing a beautiful stretch of the Eastern Cleddau, I can maybe see that you are not aware of the serious problems with regard to the lack of bailiffs in North Wales. I've gone 12 years without seeing a bailiff on the River Clwyd yet when I fished the Cleddau, I would see the bailiff at least twice in a fortnight. I am not lucky enough to fish the hallowed water of the Towy but I would like to point out CFF that I pay the same licience fee as you so should be able to expect the same service, something that does not happen at the moment. I would say the anglers on the Towy and maybe the Dee get far more value for money in terms of EA support for those systems compared to the lesser rivers in Wales. The Clwyd anglers funded their own net buyout and you have the cheek to bad mouth fellow anglers. I suggest you get your act in order, I do not care how much work you have done for your federation or area, you have made no difference to the quality of service I get from the EA.
As to not understanding what the campaign is about, I suggest you read the title, it is pretty self explanitory. I can personally vouch for Highplains both as a person and his integrity. From your comments CFF, I would doubt many could say the same!

An Apology would be a good idea and this thread could then be used as another example of how the Welsh nation (of which I am one) can bollo**s up the best of ideas and intentions at committee level.

[GETHYN]

As Chairman of CFF I am concerned about comments regarding a posting by 'cff'' on the forum.

I have read this posting several times and can not see it as being any other than informative, where is it offensive? where is it patronising? and to who?
.

'rwgbridgend', your first reply in my opinion is OFFENSIVE, it is also PERSONAL and totally provocative.

I see no mention of your club or any other organisation in CFF's posting, it is you that has escalated this thread to a personal identity. We are all aware of the problems of security on our rivers, these have been there since time began, the question is as to how do we improve them.

First of all, there is not enough funding coming from government, the myth that our ( Game Anglers ) licence money would make any difference is a non starter, it is only a small percentage of the gross figure, and would not pay for the present force let alone any increase!!. Still Fisheries, nearly all coarse angling fisheries, who incidentally between them contribute over 80% to the licence total, are carrying out their own security and protecting their stocks, Privately owned Game fisheries have done this also, for centuries, through their keepers who are paid entirely by the owners. Where is your argument for full protection for clubs and associations from the public purse?.

Clubs and Associations own valuable assets but they are private assets. T they need to take a more hands- on role in protecting them. The answer is not campaigning for a massive increase in funding from government and Tax Payers to police commercial properties, Jo Public would have something to say about that I'm sure.

The best immediate action is to get out there and help to protect OUR valuable private assets and property.These are not public property, they are privately owned and controlled, CFF and other organisations are trying in a small way to do just that and do not deserve these derogatory postings.

Your words.
"Chased off the river", "car kicked", "pelted by rocks", these are all serious public order and criminal damage offences, the Police are the only ones that could help you there. As for the 4 sewin, this was also theft - if it could be proven that they had not been acquired legally, The eggs were another matter. Was the poacher feathered?, Did he have two or four legs?. Maybe you should put your own ramblings in the right context before misconstruing others.

That there are problems out there is fact. Until, or if the solution comes from government, I appeal to you, make an effort to improve matters by organising groups through the authorities to deal with some of the less specialised issues regarding security on our rivers.

If you do not, then your valuable investments will come to nothing. They are your properties. Get out there and protect them.

[apprentice2]

CFF

You posted

'Highplains' is equally touchy about his mysterious 'campaign'.
We are now accused of being 'anti'. Anti what?
How can we be expected to support something we know nothing about?
Why do the identities of his supporters have to be secret?
Who indeed is 'highplains'? We know about rwbridgend of Ogmore AA and CFF.
So who is this anonymous person? Is he like us - a club secretary or a federation sec?
Or is he simply representing himself?


"Mysterious campaign" PLEASE read the posts 1 - 4 and the mystery will be revealed and you may then know something about the campaign. As for "who is this anonymous person" who is the equally anonymous CFF? At least I know that Highplains is a committed advocate for all anglers fishing all Welsh rivers.

I beg all Forum members to ignore the sniping postings of the ANONYMOUS CFF and support the campaign.

Brian M.

[clwydman]

could not agree more apprentice2
'Highplains' is equally touchy about his mysterious 'campaign'.
We are now accused of being 'anti'. Anti what?
How can we be expected to support something we know nothing about?
Why do the identities of his supporters have to be secret?
Who indeed is 'highplains'? We know about rwbridgend of Ogmore AA and CFF.
So who is this anonymous person? Is he like us - a club secretary or a federation sec?
Or is he simply representing himself?


Who Highplains is, is surely an irrelevance. The fact that you do not know him but know of his campaign may suggest that he works for the good of angling in Wales, not one river system in Wales. Your derogatory comments CFF are beyond contempt and show that your motives are purely selfish, with no consideration for the rest of the rivers of Wales. Oh and by the way CFF the river Clwyd federation bought the nets off our river many, many years ago. Maybe you should have considered asking for advice from experience rather than be so negative towards individuals and their NATIONAL campaign.

Might I be so bold as to suggest that one of the many anglers of the Towy with a modicum of common sense contact CFF and point out the harm he is causing, not only to this campaign but also your attempts to buy out the nets on the Towy. I for one will not help one bit after those comments!

[highplains]

So soon Gethyn, so soon.

You can not expect anglers to protect the rivers, that is a job for highly trained professional bailiffs who have the legal authority to pursue and charge poachers.

If anglers try doing it either individually or in groups they risk being charged with assault (on the poacher/s) and having a police record.

What about the EAW's statutory obligations?

Goverment of the people for the people by the peoiple

[waddington]

The EA have a statutory responsibility to protect our rivers. Certainly in the case of the river Ogmore, where I am a member, the EA has not even come close to fulfilling its obligations. Both these points are simply facts. What is there to debate?

The current situation on many rivers is unacceptable. Why should I, as a law abiding angler, pay the EA a licence fee (part of which should go to wards controlling illegal fishing), when organised gangs can poach with impunity? The club are doing all they can but volunteers only go so far. I don't see why anglers should have to go down the road of employing their own bailiffs when they are already paying the EA to provide the service. Frankly though surely the situation is getting that bad. The 600 members of Ogmore Angling Association, at say to keep it easy, £60 an EA licence have paid somewhere in the region of £36000. More than enough I would suggest to expect some action to stop illegal fishing!

Its high time the EA was held to account in regard to its currently appalling performance. I believe that the campaign organised by Highplains, deserves and has, the support of most anglers who are fed up with EA ineptitude. I am in no way an official of Ogmore AA just an ordinary member who has had a guts full!
All the Best
Phil

[cff]

Dear Hoppy
It seems I have misunderstood the purpose of your forum - and Gethyn's one.
I thought it was somewhere to share and discuss information.
Instead, it is clearly a place where for some, personal abusive criticism appears to be at their pinnacle of response.
Sad really.
But I will repeat. As the Sec of a large organisation, I have a responsibility to my members.
I will not - must not - support or otherwise - something I know nothing about.
I do not know the identity of the Campaign Promoter or who, if anybody, he represents.
He certainly does not, as he seems to want to claim, represent the views of all Welsh anglers.
He does have a list of complaints and an unknown number of people allegedly supporting his views. Fair enough.
But I do not know what he intends to do about the complaints and until I find out, I have no opinion.
When I do know, I will seek advice where appropriate before advising my members. Not before.
Anybody in a position of responsibility who pre-empts this procedure, shouldn't.
Please accept my sincere apologies for misusing your facilities.

[clwydman]

CFF, have you emailed or contacted Highplains for clarification?

FIRSTLY YOU SUGGEST SEVERAL THINGS THAT HIGHPLAINS IS ALLEGED TO 'CLAIM' CAN YOU PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF THIS COMMENT AS I CANNOT FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF THIS
Might I suggest that the above comment may be slanderous!


You as secretary of CFF are using this forum for the sole purpose of funding net removal on your river!
As anglers we support any campaign that we can see will benefit any river. That is why you are receiving support. You have no right to d**n the work of an individual to raise the profile of the current situation in Wales. I cannot for the life of me understand your negative attitude to this! I would appreciate you outline what information you require to support this campaign or otherwise.
I have to point out your rather scathing comments about one club on the Towy who has not supported your campaign. Is it not rich that you critisise all around you may I suggest a session of looking in the mirror is required!

[rwgbridgend]

We find that our customary policy of active debate and collaboration can be so much more productive than confrontation.

Seemingly insurmountable perceived problems, often turn out to be contrived and misconstrued - no more than unsustainable hot air.

Some others would do well to follow our example.

I will let other forum members make as they wish as to the comments of CFF that I have listed above. I stand by the observations and comments that I have made.

I find it difficult to swallow that his words were posted innocently on this particular thread. It was posted for an effect and an effect he has achieved. A carrot was well and truly dangled in order that Gethyn could provide a most informative speech about finance and politics. Seems very well orchestrated to me.

Other forum members will ultimately decide, as they have already begun to do so.

[waddington]

I don't see any reason for this debate to become personalised. Surely we all want whats best for our rivers, we just differ in how we should go about it.

After looking at the thread again, I think it was the implication in cff's post that collaboration with the EA, rather than directly confronting the agency over its failings, that has caused this disagreement. Also cff seems to suggest that organisations such as CFF should be left to represent anglers views to the EA.

I personally believe that the CFF organisation has got this one wrong, as the situation on many rivers is spiraling toward anarchy. Any acceptance of the current situation is merely fudging the issue. Frankly cff's approach to dealing with the EA does not seem to be getting us very far on many rivers in Wales. I believe that we anglers are all customers of the EA and are being badly let down. Therefore I think we should, and have, every right to protest loudly! I do appreciate that cff as a secretary of a large organisation has to be careful as to whether he feels he can support particular campaigns.

As for the suggestion that we should do more for ourselves I am in agreement. However voluntary efforts to 'police' a river can only go so far in this day and age. Yes we should all be vigilant but you cannot expect volunteers to replace paid full time dedicated bailiffs. Full time professional bailiffs are required, but you cannot expect anglers to pay to employ their own enforcement officers, when they are already paying the EA to allegedly provide the service.

It would be nice if we could pull together on this one. I continue to support Highplains campaign and feel that it is representative of many anglers present view of the EA's performance.
All the Best
Phil

[dunc]

A question to cff,

in your own words and i quote "until I find out, I have no opinion."

Why did you post on this thread in the first place if you have no opinion??

Duncan.

[rwgbridgend]

CFF & Gethyn,

Following posts from other forum members (members that i have never met or do not know), it is clear that I am not the only person who read the initial comments by CFF in the context that i did. I now feel fully vindicated in my response.

However you state that the initial posting was not written in the context it was taken but merely as an informative post to inform forum members of the Federation's recent meeting with EAW. If this is the case, I apologise for taking your comments out of context and respectfully withdraw from this current debate.

I sometimes get emotive with this subject - it is difficult not to when long term elderly members do not rejoin our association due to lawlessness on our riverbanks, junior members with learning disabilities get threatened, club bailiffs resign due to violent incidents and myself having to change my vehicle to avoid vandalism. I don't dramatise events for an effect i merely state facts.

Once again I apologise if myself (and forum members) took the initial post out of context. I would now like to concentrate my efforts on fighting the campaign with Highplains - a campaign where for the first time many thousands of anglers of all angling disciplines have been brought together for a common goal.

[kwilliams]

I can attest to having received on more occassions than I can recall being told NOT to attend an complainants report of illegal activity in fisheries in North Wales.
When I had good reason to remonstrate with line managers as to why I should ignore a complaint and it was often....I was told that I would be disciplined if I went ahead and investigated a problem.....
This caused me much soul searching and wonderment as to why I should not ignore the instruction and deal with a matter, but I always came back with the same answer and sense of bewilderment that always led me to believe that certain colleagues were most certainly only in the job for the money and not as I was..a life long vocation entrant as I had been since I left school at 18..... I was almost 51 when I left the agency in 2005.
it grieves me that a money grasping behaviour still exisits and even more is a issue because of a performance related pay system that exists to reward box ticking, refusal to get ones hands dirty. not to challenge real criminals and then take a slovenely laid back attitude to such issues as netting where offenders nets are reported by anglers and later lifted by a bailiff before the offender returns to collect them thus saving investigation time and avoiding long hours on duty...... this wasn't the way things used to be done as bailiffs would always wait to get their man no matter what happened.
To say that staff resources have got new priorities is total bunkum and certain staff know it.
I'd even ask if staff have ever been vetted for background behaviour prior to being appointed.... I know otherwise... it just doesn't happen within the meaning of the " Rehabilitation of Offenders Act"
I'll let others make of that what they will !.... I just felt very unhappy in my working associations.
As for the present debate on the net buyout I fail to see why anglers should work to reward netsmen when the case should be for legislative removal in new parliamentary legislation thats been in discussion since 1999..... the issue of net licences often failed to meet the legislative criteria yet licences were still issued... much against many a bailiffscomments and complaints of a certain applicants suitability. often such remarks wer held on file and may well still be available for scrutiny..
The Agency has often failed to grasp the nettle with netsmen throughout most of Wales despite warnings from its bailiffs of long past standing as to their behaviour on most rivers and it strikes me as odd that an angling club wishes to side up with a negative stance rather than be one with the majority view .
i would much rather see a review of the FERAC appointment process and how the chairmen of local fishery committees are appointed so that the governing bodies have an input to the process.
this would give an open overview of any such appointments and ensure constant contact at all levels with the common angler on the river or lakeside which ever the case may be.
At present there is a growing unease as to the performance of unelected fishery committee chairpersons who constantly side with the EA point of view and are not representative of the common viewpoint of the angling community.
May be this is a good time to start another campaign for even better representation and to make the local fishery advisory committees more accountable to the whole angling community to the point of making such meeting open to the public at every opportunity

[Hoppy]

I have lamented over the posts on this thread since the early hours of this morning. (starting at CFF's post). And to be fair i am disappointed by it all.

As a visiting angler to Wales, and to other parts of the UK it saddens me to know that bailiffing levels are decreasing and the situation within the EA Fisheries Enforcement teams is worsening - kwilliams posts and other information have highlighted to me the demise of enforcement officers in Wales. However enforcement is only one issue for the protection of our fisheries.

Water quality, habitat improvement, Canoes, Stocking, Predation, Nets, Foreign netting etc etc all require consideration at a National Level.

If i could join FERAC i would, but perhaps im not suitably qualified, and to be fair i am only a visitor. However i for one, have little idea as to what they discuss, and where the information can be found (now rectified).

To me the EA and EAW are not the best placed to protect our fisheries, they have a budget, apparently not that big, BUT, they have a lot of areas to fund, enforcement is just one. I for one would like to see a separate fisheries body, outside the EA whose only concerns are Rivers and Fisheries - Not fly tipping, waste management, flooding etc etc.

If clubs and associations become responsible for policing their own clubs, then they will need legal protection, training and above all willing people who are prepared to face confrontation on a daily basis. They will need a great deal of support, statutory powers and protective equipment.... So what will licence fees go towards.

Most Angling associations are non profit making, unlike Private Coarse fisheries, and Private River beats. These associations use the monies made from ticket sales to pay rent on water, find new waters etc etc. This usually keeps the fees cheap for the angler - and is recycled back into the river. Providing enforcement may result in increased fees etc etc. Im sure the LiabilitY Insurance alone will be mega bucks!

However all that said and done - it is apparent that we as anglers have no collective voice, and are fighting against each other, looking after our own interests, and at times not looking at the bigger picture. It seems to me that the issues we face are national, but clubs within the country aren't communicating well, and are missing great opportunities.

In support of the CFF, they do promote themselves very well, they have massive support and are listened to by the EAW. They also make information available to their members regularly and have websites that show what they are doing, and issues they are challenging. Perhaps other areas should follow suit.

I'd be interested to know if other areas of Wales (especially areas of the North) knew about Rivers Trusts, and the funds that can be made available?

Still, it saddens me to see all this bickering between anglers and associations - so for now i will withdraw my personal support for all these campaigns, buy out funds and concentrate on fishing -

So i end with a quote from a Modern Day literary Genious - Victoria Pollard

"Bovered?"

Hoppy - Gone Fishin'

A very sad state of affairs, and a very disappointed visiting angler.

[Diawlbach]

It's beyond me how Garth's comments (CFF) could provoke such a lot of untoward comment, CFF are actively addressing the bailiffing issue and should be commended for their endeavours not targetted by people who appear to be threatened by that stance.
I also wholeheartedly support the CFF net buy out, thank goodness there are groups which work for anglers in partnership with the EA rather than setting them up as a target to snipe at.

[clwydman]

This campaign has not in it's aims nor will ever be set up to snipe at the EA. The bailiffs in this area are fully aware of these aims and are happy to work closely with federations and angling clubs in this area.

There have been several comments made here and especially on the other forum which mention words like 'snipe' and 'target', surely these are words that could best be used to describe CFF's initial posting and not the ones who dared to disagree with his views.

There is a fundamental difference here! This campaign is aimed at improving the situation nationally, for all anglers working with the EA to improve the current situation which we all agree is not the best.

The stance which seems to have been made (and forgive me if I am misreading things again) by CFF appears to very centred around the Towy and tributaries.

Surely EVERYONE should support EVERY initiative to improve things whether that be net buy-outs, increased bailiffing EVERYTHING!!!

As too net buy-outs, it is my opinion that no river in Wales should still have nets decimating the migratory population of fish and I would work extremely hard to achieve this. You may not be aware that the Clwyd federation of anglers achieved this many years ago.

Surely the way forward is joined up thinking not disjointed thinking.

[Hoppy]

Diawlbach,

Strange you should choose to post on this thread, when you have been quiet for so long?

Partnerships with the EA are obviously the way forward!

Im afraid the politics of this all has really disappointed me, and from now on i will just fish without thought of the bigger issues.

So my concerns about the future of fishing for migratory fish will no longer be aired on this forum, i hope that those who remain concerned in the policitics of this will fight well and remember that the fish and the future of the sport are the most important aspects of todays politics.

Hoppy

[Diawlbach]

admin said:

Diawlbach,

Strange you should choose to post on this thread, when you have been quiet for so long?

Just back from a couple of weeks of internet free holiday, nothing strange about that Hoppy.

As for the sniping at the EA a quick check of Highplains previous posts will support that assertion.

[Hoppy]

Highplains has highlighted some areas of the EAW's work that are sadly lacking - and they needed to be shown to the anglers out there. His posts throughout this forum will show what he has uncovered, its not sniping its just a different point of view to yours and giving people information on the threat of more cuts to enforcement.

Diawlbach - Im sure that the Teifi Rivers Trust works with the EAW, and therefore you wont be seen to challenge the enforcement issue?

Hoppy

[Diawlbach]

On the contrary Hoppy. My work with the Teifi Rivers Trust doesn't prevent me from deploring the unbelievable lack of resources for bailiffing - either publicly or privately - in any way. I've always been clear on that and have absoloutely no qualms about the effect that such a view will have on my relationship with EA staff.