ANARCHY ON THE OGMORE

[rwgbridgend]

When the subject of lack of EAW enforcement was first discussed on the forum, it was in the context of a threat to our fish stocks from illegal anglers and poachers and not as a threat to legitimate anglers.

With regret, I have to report that this lack of EAW presence on our river has created a monster of a problem. A problem that could jeopardise our sport and one of wales' largest angling clubs.

Over the past few weeks the level of illegal anglers on the River Ogmore has created a dangerous situation. Almost a day hasn't gone past without calls to our club bailiffs from concerned members.

In the past few weeks we have dealt with gangs illegally fishing with spinners and bread, 'travellers' turning up pilfering our fish and almost every tom, dick and harry without a licence turning up on the ogmore, some from many miles away.

To get the EA to respond is impossible. The police have assisted on several occasions.

This weekend must be classed as the straw that broke the camel's back. On friday a member fled the river in fear of his life after being pelted with rocks by 7 illegal anglers. He did not even challenge them.

Saturday night resulted in a member calling the police after a gang of 'travellers' turned up.

Today - well what can i say! one of our junior members was threatened. A member with learning difficulties was told that his vehicle would be 'done over' next time they saw him. Myself - well i narrowly missed being assaulted by 4 men whilst walking my dog! i was chased form the scene whilst my vehicle was subjected to foot marks!

Six hours later, i am still awaiting a response from EAW and the police!

The lack of bailiffs on our river has created anarchy on our rivers! Sorry, but never mind the fish, I am more concerned about the lives and safety of our members.

This is a sad indictment of EAW. Little be known to them they have created a 'dire' situation on welsh rivers.

Wynne Griffiths

Secretary - Ogmore Angling Association

[Diawlbach]

That sounds terrible Wynne, I hope you eventually get some help when you most need it.
Where were the police? The lack of response deserves some sort of review of proceedures, thank goodness no one was badly hurt.

[highplains]

Firstly, may I say that I have known Wynne for some time. He is a mild mannered and gently spoken man, who's word I would accept as gospel. So I have no doubt as to the accuracy of his report.

I am also advised, though it has not has yet to be verified, that the man himself, Andy Schofield of the Environment Agency Wales was also "seen off" by similar brigands in the same area in the last few days.

What now Andy to the no poachers line?

It would seem that the current guardians of our rivers have so failed in their charge that not only are the fish at risk but also those of us that fish legitimately.

This has to start a serious reaction from the angling community. You may have seen the Clwyd and Elwy thread where netters are already publicly bragging of their exploits and explaining how they net our water.

If the Agency and police response does not fit these crimes, then I think now may be the time to look into the possibility of taking legal action against those failing to carry out their duties.

Any lawyers on this site?

Surely we are not going to have to start a campaign fund.

EAW WAKE UP - combined action with the police is desperately called for. You claim your staff are all on covert activity. Covert activity this!!!!
A very concerned and angry

Highplains

[Barcud]

rwbridgend,
Have you considered contacting the Welsh media ( BBC, ITV, Western Mail/ Echo etc).to publicise these problems.
Maybe it would embarrass the wasters at the EAW into some long overdue action.

[Hoppy]

I just can't beleive this - its a situation that has been allowed to get out of control.

Effective and visible bailiffing on the riverbank in the last few years would have sent out the message that the river is a no go area for poachers etc and that the likelyhood of being caught was high. Unfortunately as Wynne as highlighted in the last 12 months the Ogmore has been neglected.

Not knowing the full facts of Wynne's incident, I think the comments by Diawlbach in relation to "Where were the police?" need to be carefully considered. Consideration would have been given to when Wynne made the call, if he was assaulted and the current threat. Im sure that they will be in touch soon. (Obviously i will have some bias here - and current events make me very defensive). The police have a responsibility to attend public order incidents etc, but the illegal fishing side (still an issue that can be dealt with by the Police) should be addressed by the EAW!

Diawlbach - I dont understand whose procedures should be addressed? The Police? or the EAW? Surely you can see that this situation has been caused by peopkle getting away with illegal fishing for some time?

The question that should have been asked and is far more relevant is - Where have the EAW been.

Perhaps the most telling line in Wynne's post is

To get the EA to respond is impossible. The police have assisted on several occasions.

A very sad situation that needs highlighting on the forum and in the press.

I hope that Wynne can keep us updated and that other Ogmore anglers find time to post their experiences of problems on the river.

Hoppy!

[Diawlbach]

I think that it goes without saying that the EA have to address the lack of bailiffs on the water, particularly on the Ogmore.

Poaching become an issue for the police once people are threatened and assaulted by the poachers and in the case described by Gwynne it sounds like a robust police response was sadly lacking when the situation was allowed to develop over a number of days, this wasn't a one off.
Addressing problems with travellers never seems to be taken up with any great enthusiasm, the authorities probably hope that they'll move on and take their problems away with them.

[plotter]

The option i can see is for legitamate honest fishermen like ourselves is going out together to teach these robbing bastards a lesson. Dont be bullied, bully them back..

[silverinvicta]

Plotter....not a good idea, every Anti in the country would jump on the band wagon, it would give them an excuse to lambaste the angler again.The only sensible way is discussion, no matter how much it goes against the grain, and unfortunatly how long it takes.I only wish i had a solution, i dont, but i do know violence against these sh*ts aint the sensible way....Anglers would lose out......AGAIN

Si

[moonshadow]

Mr Wynne Griffiths may I suggest that you as a matter of urgency write a letter to Barbara Wilding Chief Constable of South Wales Police outlining these threats and acts of violence. Also send a copy of the letter to all the media you can as well as your local AM. It is my experience that the Police Service do not like incidents like this which shows their response times to be wanting. When this matter hits the public domain you will have I am sure the response you require.

The knock on effect of these gangs being unable to operate on the Ogmore is likely to mean they will move to another river. The authorities must realise the seriousness of this situation as if this is not stopped now there is a real risk of an innocent person enjoying their sport will become another crime statistic.

Records of every incident where threats of violence or damage are made should be reported to the Police so there is a record held by them of every incident.

[shocker]

a friend of mine in the recycling trade told me this weekend that with the introduction of the waste disposal licenses scrap yards will no longer accept anything from "independent" dealers.This has left a large part of the less official community with a big hole in their income.Traditionally poaching was a way of life to some of these people so it now seems to be the replacement for the scrap trade.
So,expect more of this with associated violence to increase nationwide.

No disrepect meant to hoppy and others,but shouldnt intelligence led action foresee this kind of thing?

[oggy876]

Obviously this is a very serious problem, there’s no doubt of that, and it needs to be dealt with, but not by anglers, which by implication, is the local Police and the EAW.

Over In the U.S. this is how fish and wildlife matters are dealt with.
All States have what is called a Fish and Wildlife organization that is either as US Fish and Wildlife Federally funded or State funded.
Officers working within the dept have more power than the Police so far as any issues that related to wildlife, protection and enforcement of laws and regulations so far as the taking of fish or game.
Penalties are either at the low end fines, or in worse cases jail time. They also have the right to confiscate any vehicle used and other equipment used for the purposes of taking game illegally, exceeding the legal limits and all else considered to be a violation.
And the subsequent non allowance for a game and fish license, for many years or life in some circumstances, for all States within the U.S.
I’ve met with some of these officers on the river systems and they’re well armed. That’s a deterrent.!

The EWA also have the same powers and we are paying for them via our rod license. Therefore surely there is a need for a law suit against the EWA on the grounds that they are not doing the job we are paying for.

It is not the responsibility of angling clubs or associations to take care of this matter, they only pay for the rights to fish the waters, and they do not make the laws and regulations that relate to the taking of game fish.
It is they who do that, and they are responsible for the enforcement of the regulations, period.

The only sensible way l can see this situation being addressed is within the court system.

Royn

[Hoppy]

I have given my thoughts on this and as such i will not be saying anymore about specifics. I would like to hear a reply from Wynne giving details of the call he made to the police and the response offered.

It seems that the EAW will escape the real issue here, the fact that the river has come to this through lack of effective enforcement.

I think that the general public would rather see Police on the streets, rather than the riverbanks - especially when the EAW has enforcement officers. As ive said before if its public order, violence or threats then this should be addressed by the police.

[plotter]

point taken, i just dont see the EA or anyone else talking about it changing much, the fact is we need more officers whether police or EA patrolling the rivers to stop this anti social bullying towards honest people who either work all week and can only go fishing when we can, or retired people who have worked all their lives and paid taxes. These people need to be caught, by legal means i agree but it needs doing before someone gets seriouisly hurt, whether it be honest fisherman or these nasty arrogant shites.(sorry to go on but it really makes my blood boil as there is no need for it what so ever.) :-(

[muddlerman]

hello guys
here we go again i see ,its the same old story as for the EA . a lack of man power to watch our rivers well except the important rivers that is,,i do truely feel very annouyed by those thugs and travellers poachers ,they are all out to make money @ our expence.. where dose all the money go ?? from our licence fees?? if its happening on club water those thugs travellers ect, are trespassing and have they got the rite to threaten members i dont think so ,, these situations WOULD NEVER HAPPEN ON THE TOWY .. is the ogmore club a member of CFF? they may be able to help the club out ? why the hell dont the EA get in contact with lubs in wales and recruit members of diffrent clubs as honary baillifs to monitor the rivers for
(poachers, pollutions , illigal fishermen thugs ect,, ?? just an idea ??we had just that type of guy on our river in the early 90s , where he is now god only knows , wait for the EA to deal with these problems waiting we will be , its all to little to late . when was the last time your licences were checked by a EA officer ?? mine was checked last about 15yrs ago wot alaff ..
i personally have zero confidence in the EA in eny way wot so ever .....

[rwgbridgend]

Thank you for all the replies to this serious issue and to forum members for their report.

The purpose of my thread was to highlight the fact that the lack of EAW bailiffs has not only endangered our fish stocks but has progressed to endangering legitamite anglers.

With regards to South Wales Police, I learned today that they did actually attend yesterday's incident, I had obviously fled the area so was unaware of this. The sergeant I spoke to today was most helpful and reassured of continued police presence where required. I must stress that the police have been called and attended 3 incidents in the last few weeks alone and have been most helpful in the continued absence of EAW.

Many forum members may say that our Club Bailiffs should not place themselves in danger. Our Association spends considerable amounts of money on trickle stocking the river during the first part of the season. Unfortunately we must protect our stocks or we will lose our members. If we do not stock we will lose our members.

I am still shaken and angry about recent events and have only have one thing left to say:

WAKE UP ENVIRONMENT AGENCY WALES BEFORE SOMEBODY IS SERIOUSLY INJURED OR KILLED!

[goldhead]

HAVING ATTENDED SEVERAL OF THE RECENT INCIDENTS INVOLVING "ILLEGAL ANGLING/THEFT" I TOTALLY AGREE THAT WE ARE INDEED TEETERING ON THE ABYSS.
I MUST REDRESS ANY COMMENTS AND SAY WHAT AN EXCELLENT RESPONSE WE HAVE HAD FROM SOUTH WALES POLICE WITH IMMEDIATE RESPONSES EACH TIME AND ALL OF US INVOLVED ARE VERY GRATEFULL FOR THEIR ASSISTANCE-WE ONLY CALL ON THEM WHEN SITUATIONS COULD WITH ANY INTERVENTION BECOME DIFFICULT LETS SAY! BUT OF LATE ITS ALMOST DAILY!!!!
BUT FOR EAW -TO BE TOLD A SECOND TIME "THERE IS NO ENFORCEMENT OFFICER ON DUTY TODAY BEGGARS BELIEF AND AS THE SEC SAYS DOES A SERIOUS ASSAULT OR WORSE HAVE TO HAPPEN BEFORE SOMEONE AT EAW SITS UP AND TAKES NOTICE-TOO LATE THEN ISNT IT
THE CONTROL ROOM AT EAW AND THE FISHERIES OFFICER ON DUTY DID RING SEVERAL TIMES TO CHECK ON PROGRESS AND ASCERTAIN OUR SAFETY-SO THANKS TO THOSE INDIVIDUALS BUT A NOTE TO THEIR MANAGERS :(WAKE UP WAKE UP YOU HAVE BEEN MADE WELL AWARE OF THE CURRENT SITUATION AND TO DO NOTHING IS SURELY A NEGLECT OF DUTY IS IT NOT?

[dunc]

muddlerman,

what did you mean by "except the important rivers that is" and also "these situations WOULD NEVER HAPPEN ON THE TOWY"

From your post you seem to think that certain Rivers have certain privileges from the EAW.

In the five years of fishing on the Towy plus two years on the Gwendraith, and also the River Wear, I have never seen an EAW bailiff, this problem is nation wide, Wales and England!!

Dunc.

[highplains]

The consequences and implications of this thread are very serious and in my view required careful consideration and not perhaps the knee jerk reaction of my first posting.

Already we have members suggesting that club members be used as volunteer bailiffs, this suggestion totally disregards he whole point of the thread – legal anglers are being scared off the river by ruffian poachers. These poachers are not clones of Seth Dingle from Emmerdale, they are thugs that need treating with professional zeal and appropriate caution by those trained so to do.

I think I implied criticism of the police in my first posting. This was unfair and irrational. The people responsible for policing our waters and protecting the fish in them are The Environment Agency Wales. They have for years been insisting there is no poaching problem, they seem at last to, maybe, start considering there is a problem. Now this! This is the time for us to stop coming up with wild solutions, stop producing knee jerk responses and stick to one line, and one line only.

The Environment Agency Wales is the author of this situation, it has consistently denied there is an issue and has been complacent to such a degree that defies polite description. They have made this bed upon which they expect us to lay! The guardians of our waters have proved to be modern day Nero’s – fiddling whilst there responsibilities are failed around them.

We must do four things:

1. Hope and pray that nobody is seriously injured, or worse.
2. Put all the blame where it lays, fairly and squarely on the Environment Agency Wales.
3. Stop coming up with cock and bull solutions to a problem that required a professionally qualified staff to address. These ‘solutions’ must be taken as a real insult by the hard working enforcement staff that try to do their job. They need more help. 150 full time and fully trained bailiffs for the whole of Wales! Nothing less.
4. Keep campaigning!

We know they, The Environment Agency Wales monitor this site. In my view this should be considered our notification that they must be held to account for the consequences of their failure.

I appeal for a united front.

All the best

Highplains

[clwydman]

I do think Muddlerman has a point actually. I do not agree that the 'big rivers' have more bailiff coverage but I do feel that the EA are protecting the biggest asset. In North Wales I can guarantee that bailiffs have a better knowledge of the Dee and the Conwy than they do of the Clwyd and the Ogwen for example. This is not a slur on the bailliffs in any way shape or form but look at the money thrown at the Dee especially. This financing by the Ea of the salmon fishery on the Dee has to be monitored. Whilst I cannot support reacting violently towards poachers, dont forget they are likely to know the law better than you and will end up suing you, I do think that anglers we do need to be far more militant in our approach. E.G. on the first day of next season every angler in Wales fishes without a licience. A protest fish if you like, publicity would follow such an event, it is peaceful and it gets your point across. We cannot expect the EA to change without huge pressure. An alternative is to hold back from buying a licience for one month. The impact on the purse strings of the EA would be huge. Come on lets use our imagination and stick together for once. This has to be done together. Frankly poaching on the Ogmore doesn't effect me, I never fish it! Lets be honest this is the attitude of many anglers. But we must on mass support our fellow anglers whether it effects us directly or not.

[rwgbridgend]

I am glad that the seriousness of this issue has sparked such a debate.

These problems are possibly more pronounced on the ogmore more so than other rivers due to it's urban catchment. The Ogmore has been without a dedicated EAW bailiff for over 2 years. This is the end result. This problem will spread to all rivers in wales as the lack of visible enforcement becomes evident.

Of course these problems are in addition to the pilfering of our spawning grounds and holding pools which is occuring on all rivers in Wales.

A couple of high visibility patrols by EAW on the ogmore in the next few weeks will not appease this time. EAW must now look at a more long term solution and not short term fix.