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Post by sewinbasher on Dec 6, 2007 14:25:54 GMT -1
Re length!. Personally,I would recommend a 10ft model as a good all round length. Re Make. Again,personal preference,and one you will have to decide on yourself.As before,try has many makes/models as you can. Re line weight. This is also dependent on the size of rivers you fish,size of flies you are likely to throw ect!.I use a 8wt myself for the reasons I have give,It suits the rivers I fish,and it can handle the large flies I throw,two at a time,most of the time!. Personally I would recommend a 8wt Andrew.....Because,not only can you cast large flies with it,but you can also cast smaller flies with it when needed...You will struggle a little with a 7wt to do both!. Bang on advice and with you on this one. Definitely try before you buy, whenever and wherever possible. Daz and I differ on the action front, where I prefer the more middle or mid-tip action for sewin. But again, this is a personal thing and you may find that one suits you better. You tend to find that the faster blanks make for poorer roll casting rods, but again this may not be essential for you. Personally, I tend to fish with 2 rods; enigma EMG 10ft #8, and the airflo HLS 10ft for #7/8 (hugely discounted at the moment). They both do the job admirably for me, but they may not be your cup of tea. TT. p.s. Welcome to the forum I'm also convinced that you get less hook pull outs or dropped fish with middle actioned rods.
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Post by dancer on Dec 6, 2007 17:39:04 GMT -1
Andrew Im not sure which part of the country you are living in but if you can get to Wales either by persuading her indoors she needs a holiday or by whatever other means may be appropriate then you could just happen to call at FISHTEC in Brecon [see internet].They have a superb selection of gear at all prices to suit which they are happy for you to try before you commit or not.Its very helpful to try different action rods and lines outside. And before anyone asks I have no connection with them I just happen to rate them highly Regards Dancer
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Post by jj1 on Dec 6, 2007 17:40:58 GMT -1
daz, a faster actioned rod requires the caster to time/hit the cast far more precisely which is nearly always umbeneficial to beginers to night fishing as you have to rely on touch and feel to do this as the ability to see what you are doing is taken away from you, a softer actioned rod (mid tip)allows a little more time which can be crucial to your casting in the dark and allows you to hit the cast more efficiently each time. with a faster rod comes as ive said a tighter loop, because of this tighter loop, miss timed casts nearly always results in knots etc, yes i agree this is also so of the softer rods, but less so, unless like your 2 friends they are highly proficient casters and this doesnt happen. it also isnt so critical on smaller rivers such as the neath where 15 yard casts are the norm, but transfer that to the tywi where 25 - 35 yd casts are the norm then you will see the diffrence on how much feel plays in casting when you have to drop your flies to within 6 inches of the far bank at the end of a 30 yd cast or you wont catch bugr all lol. longer casts are all about timing, just like a rugby player kicking a ball. arwel thomas was/is only a doot' but he could/can kick a ball 50+ yads. if you kick a ball as hard as you can it might go anywhere but use less power and you can put it where you want nearly every time, its exactly the same in casting.
thanx hoppy, gettin myself a 10 footer to have a play with. jj
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Post by DAZ on Dec 6, 2007 21:13:45 GMT -1
Cheers for that JJ......Well put over!. I got to agree with you Re; beginners,short casts etc etc!. with a faster rod comes as ive said a tighter loop, I can't agree entirely with you on this one though! YES!...It will throw a tighter loop than a softer actioned rod,but only if we want it to,it will also throw a loop as open has a soft actioned rod can throw if you wanted to!.It really comes down to the ability of the caster I think,and many other things which I could not possibly put over as well has Whitehunter!.....He should start taking this casting lark and all the technical stuff that goes with it seriously....He's quite good at it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D if you kick a ball as hard as you can it might go anywhere but use less power and you can put it where you want nearly every time, its exactly the same in casting. I tend to overload my rods aftma rating buy one or two depending on the line I'm using,I think this possibly aids in my ability to open,or tighten,my loops as I please.I also find I can use less power,keep a fairly open loop,and reach the other bank quite accuratley!...Works for me anyway!. DAZ.
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Post by Paul Dunstan on Dec 6, 2007 21:47:52 GMT -1
Cheers for that JJ......Well put over!. I can't agree entirely with you on this one though! YES!...It will throw a tighter loop than a softer actioned rod,but only if we want it to,it will also throw a loop as open has a soft actioned rod can throw if you wanted to!.It really comes down to the ability of the caster I think,and many other things which I could not possibly put over as well has Whitehunter!.....He should start taking this casting lark and all the technical stuff that goes with it seriously....He's quite good at it. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D DAZ. To get a wide loop with a 'fast rod' you'll need to open the casting arc (how far the rod tip moves) and under power the cast - this is a potential recipe for disaster. The temptation is to achieve the desired effect by throwing a wide loop on the back cast by lifting the casting arm - and then causing the rod tip to describe a concave path on the forward cast by dipping the casting arm to deliver the forward cast - result = tailing loop and the misnamed 'wind knot' (should be called a 'casting knot'). In night-time sewin fishing the problem is exacerbated by using large / heavy / wind resistant flies, particularly if they're attached to inappropriately light leader material or an overly long leader.
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Post by White hunter on Dec 6, 2007 22:15:12 GMT -1
Hi JJ1
Maybe andrew isnt a beginner and can do this?...
Your take on softer actioned rods however is spot on, before the rod is directly "levering" the line in the direction of the next cast with a soft actioned rod there is an extra time lag which comes from the fact that verus a faster or stiffer rod, it takes longer to load and unload a softer actioned one with a similar mass of line as it puts a deeper bend into it and the recovery time is longer.
I guess this is where the term forgiving comes from, but as everything it can have its drawbacks too.
This isnt always true mate, I have taught people who have come with the fastest rod out there on the market, and all they could seemingly cast was very open loops, again simply due to the fact that they couldnt arialise sufficient line to have enough mass beyond the tip in order to actually be able to "pull a bend" into the rod and flatten the tip path enough to cast a tight loop. Simply overlining solves this temporarily until the caster can effectively handle more line..
A 25-35 yard cast in the dark is absolutley fantastic and if that is what is called for, then i would certainly be looking to string up my TCR. What make of line/and head length are you using to make these shots?, i know to hit those ranges i would have to be looking to carry during false casts, a minimum of 45ft from hauling hand to leader connection...
I would like to also take this oppertunity to reiterate on a conversation i had with daz regarding shooting heads.. The advantage offered by a shooting head, specifically for night time use is that your rod can be as stiff as a broomstick or as soft as a noodle, you can make the head to suit that rod, if the rod is really stiff and you need to fish close in, not a problem, if the rod is really soft, and you need to fish at distance, again not a problem..
I do remember advising not so long ago that if in the market for a full line for night fishing, a short headed lines is the way to go, however there is a drawback which i had overlooked, and more so in the hands of a beginner..
Short headed lines usually have a very short almost abrupt backtaper, one which is very very unforgiving to a person not rehearsed in using them all the time...
To much running line beyond the tip, the caster cannot lift it and it all fails, to much head inside the rod tip and we have the same problem as before "insufficient weight to flatten the tip pathway"....
And it is here where the head again comes into its own for night fishing, given that your casting consistency should improve as you will retrieve to the exact same point each cast and you have a very noticable junction between shooting line and the head, a valuble reference point for use at night time..
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Post by White hunter on Dec 6, 2007 22:31:47 GMT -1
Hi Steff For the past 18 months, i have been making the odd portable rod jig for friends in order to load test flyrods using the common cents system devised by Dr Bill Hanneman in the states.. www.common-cents.info/I know that Magnus has been using this method for a long time, the results he puts up in his rod reviews are based on measurment findings taken using CCS.. I personally am in favour of this system being adopted, although there are elements of it which i do not utilise at home up to now.. I remember with a huge input from Magnus, it was discussed on sexyloops in great detail and rods were measured in a different way to quantify other things too "such as mass distribution throughout each blank section etc".... This was very informative and got people really thinking about just how it advantageous it could be to those who were prepared to understand and adopt it, and how if the information was simplyfied somehow could be advantageous to help make a more informative choice..... For people familiar with / using CCS testing now, to be able to quantify results, you do get a reasonably accurate overview of the "feel" of the rod without even casting it.. it does become very clear, and I personally feel the system does seem to work. Cheers Lee
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Post by DAZ on Dec 6, 2007 22:47:19 GMT -1
[To get a wide loop with a 'fast rod' you'll need to open the casting arc (how far the rod tip moves) and under power the cast - this is a potential recipe for disaster. Not so if I do this though Paul. I tend to overload my rods aftma rating buy one or two depending on the line I'm using,I think this possibly aids in my ability to open,or tighten,my loops as I please.I also find I can use less power,keep a fairly open loop,and reach the other bank quite accuratley!...Works for me anyway!. Or is it ?. DAZ.
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Post by watermole on Dec 6, 2007 23:21:58 GMT -1
Hello Andrew!
Have just been reading your simple query and all the subsequent posts; -my two-penn'orth, for what that may be worth:
I see here all the very best advice you can get, from the cream of the sea-trout angling fraternity, on various rods, what they do and how they perform, and in many cases, where to get the best deals; -all good stuff!
However, it should be borne in mind, that the advice given, is-as I see it-the best possible, for the waters fished by the Poster in question. When all is said, done & dusted, it does come down to personal choice, and-more to the point-buying the right rod to suit the water, where you intend to fish. For example; I see that in a lot of cases, a rod of about 10ft. and of #8 is recommended. Well, my answer to that would be, the user would be in a lot of trouble with that, on the smaller, wooded river, where even an 8ft. one is sometimes whacking branches! As others have said, it's all about 'horses for courses', so my advice to you is, consider your water first. If you are going to do a lot of Loch fishing and working a team of flies, a rod of 11' may not be too long; but for river fishing, the best thing you can do, is to look at what most fishers in that area use.
As to which make? By-and-large, you get what you pay for, but remember-we all have our own preferences, which are being constantly upgraded, as experience is gained and we get better at it. A really good caster-and there are a lot here-will make fair casts and catch fish on the cheapest rod there is; But, if you are like me, and have yet to progress much beyond the tyro stage, then you should consider a rod with a more forgiving action, and, what is more,-stay with it, until you find that your ability is better than that which the rod can give, and only then, go for a more expensive, 'faster' or tighter-actioned rod.
I find that, at night,there are times when, even the most experienced casters have problems with timing and other matters; -the easier-actioned rod will help cushion your mistakes. It is my personal opinion, that there is no, one magic rod which will be right for every water and situation, and I have yet to find a retailer who offers a practical 'try-before-you-buy' service. Waggling it around in a shop is meaningless; it is not until you actually try it out on your water, that you really find out, whether it is up to the job in hand. Also, not all have the depth of pocket, that they can buy different rods at regular intervals. A piece of advice that I quote from a book, written over fifty years ago on the same topic: 'It is better to be an average caster with one rod, rather than an indifferent performer with half a dozen!'
Reading through the posts, -and with due deference and revered respect to the posters, who are proven experts and marvels of undoubted professional ability-it is almost off-putting, to read about casting techniques and such, to the point where I feel that, I need extensive tuition and a diploma in it, before there is the least hope of catching a fish!-and will readily admit to not having a clue, about how to use some of the professional standard tackle available.
To sum up: have a look at what most people on your particular water use; local knowledge is everything and they will have already found out, what works best for there. There are thousands of different rods available, and essentially, they all do the same job,i.e. delivering a line and fly to where you want it to go. If you find a rod which does the job and you like it, why change? Many will disagree, but I still hold that, fishing is a pleasurable hobby, not a science.
Enjoy it and 'Tight Lines'.
Wm.
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Post by White hunter on Dec 6, 2007 23:59:18 GMT -1
Cracking post WM! At last, some sense....!! ;D To further WM's reply, my own criteria for a ST rod is that it MUST be 9ft in length, i cannot simply get into and under the places i need to be on cumbrian spate rivers with anything longer, this can however leave me with a slight disadvantage when i fish larger rivers.. One peice of usefull information from me that might be relevant to this thread is that i find it pays to work backwards... I firstly consider the fish and the environment they live in "large river, small river, tree lined, open banks etc, then the fly/flies you prefer to use and will be casting, the line's head length you can comfortably handle at night that is sufficient also to turn over said fly/flies, and then consider the rod you need to present the line and flies combined on that particular water "here is where you could be at the mercy of the marketing script", of course working in your budget from there.. Cheers lee
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Post by silverinvicta on Dec 7, 2007 8:04:43 GMT -1
jj1 said....... Quote ["it also isnt so critical on smaller rivers such as the neath where 15 yard casts are the norm, but transfer that to the tywi where 25 - 35 yd casts are the norm then you will see the diffrence on how much feel plays in casting when you have to drop your flies to within 6 inches of the far bank at the end of a 30 yd cast or you wont catch bugr all lol.] Unquote....... My word..What super anglers on that river, and at night .. I wont bother going on holiday there now HeHeHe....... Si.... PS .. Do you even do those distances when wading t*t deep.... ?
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Post by buzzerman on Dec 7, 2007 11:11:45 GMT -1
i think length is important [ask yer missus lol] i think the general feeling is 10 ft but as stated smaller is good on some rivers , the river s you fish should dictate the length of the rod you need to use my collection goes from 12ft down to 8 ft and covers 9wt to 6 wt but if i could only afford one then it would be a seven weight 9 ft if your rods to big then do what Karl Humphreys taught me put the reel in your pocket and don't use the butt of the rod believe me its frightening landing em like that billy p
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Post by buzzerman on Dec 7, 2007 11:18:00 GMT -1
daz if your using an 8 weight rod and overloading it byup to two weights then that means you are using an 9/10 line [WOW] thats beach casting man , lol ;D no wonder you can cast two big tubes to get them big fishies , hats of to you my man , I'm goner have an 15 weight built to beat yer ] he he billy p
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Post by JT on Dec 7, 2007 12:43:14 GMT -1
This is why I've never set foot on the Isle of Man ;D
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Post by andrew on Dec 7, 2007 12:59:54 GMT -1
Thanks very much for taking the time to reply guys, much appreciated. Lots of food for thought and top class advice there (great post Wm). All the best, Andy.
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Post by silverinvicta on Dec 7, 2007 17:04:14 GMT -1
This is why I've never set foot on the Isle of Man ;D Oh well, your loss , our gain methinks ;D ;D ;D ;D Our rivers just ain't big enough to accommodate such skills....... ........ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;.........
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Post by jj1 on Dec 7, 2007 17:42:17 GMT -1
silverinvicta, yes the lower towy is a wide river, these distances are recomended and the fly lines i use are the fore runners of the 40 yard lines. myself and richard wothers up at airflow spent many hours getting the lines right, these are not the same as the bog standard or expert series but are longer in the belly and cast two large flies a very long way, ask hoppy, on his first throw he put out 42 + yards with my intermediate!!!! and yes i agree for smaller rivers a 9 footer is ideal, i use an emg enigma 6# for smaller river fishing such as the neath, ystwth, eastern cleddau and for low water on the tywi or day fishing etc and i drop even smaller to an 8.6 orvis 5# for the nevern, aeron, dwyfawr ect, but andrew asked for an all round rod that would do general alround sewin fishing that would cover everything from drifting to saltwater, this in theory would mean having half a dozen rods from 11 foot to 8.6 foot in different aftm ratings but the closest he is probably going to get is a 9.6 ft for a 7# line. jj
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Post by White hunter on Dec 7, 2007 17:56:06 GMT -1
Hi JJ1
How long are the heads on these lines?
Cheers
Lee
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Post by jj1 on Dec 7, 2007 18:02:44 GMT -1
ps si, the necesity to learn how to cast a long line and wade deep was something i learnt 20+ years ago on the lower tywi, do it or dont catch fish, so i learnt and i caught. this type of fishing doesnt suit most rivers as a lot of the welsh and cumbrian and west country and irish and west coast rivers etc etc etc are less than 25 yards wide with a hell of a lot more half that. and thats where we use the smaller rod! there was only one person about at the time who could teach me how to wade deep and cast far etc, and for anyone who knows illtyd its more a case of watching him in action and as a teenager i picked the right bloke to learn from and in my view, hes still the best sewin fisherman ive had the pleasure of fishing with. jj
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Post by silverinvicta on Dec 7, 2007 18:29:36 GMT -1
PS jj1......Said...Quote "it also isnt so critical on smaller rivers such as the neath where 15 yard casts are the norm, but transfer that to the tywi where 25 - 35 yd casts are the norm then you will see the diffrence on how much feel plays in casting when you have to drop your flies to within 6 inches of the far bank at the end of a 30 yd cast or you wont catch bugr all." Unquote The implication that I read into this is, that there must be a fair amount of superlative casters fishing the Tywi.....as the amount of fish caught could not possibly be caught by one man... or could they ;D ;D. Therefore any "only"good casters may as well save there permit moneys as they are, in your words, wasting their time.... I too, like Lee, would love to know the head length and running line used by you.....any chance of giving us a lowdown, or is it something that you prefer to keep to yourself.. perhaps because of the work put in to arrive at this end. I would not blame you for that but it would be nice..... Hopefull
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