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Post by Bucko on Feb 6, 2007 13:41:12 GMT -1
Do these chaps carry any weight in the world of fisheries? Or would they simply refer it to EA bailiffs?
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Post by highplains on Feb 6, 2007 17:41:40 GMT -1
The North Wales Wildlife Liaison Officer is a Sergeant Peter Charleston of the North Wales Police. His brief is to deal with all wildlife issues including Bats, Newts etc. he has a very wide brief. I'm sure the North Wales Police will have an appropriate web site that gives details.
When the poaching issue was first muted, I raised the issue with him. He said that as far as he was concerned there was no poaching issue. Which was fair enough because nobody was reporting poaching issues to him. He is certainly taking an active interest in the enforcement issue in this area. As far as I know he has no connection with the EAW or fisheries in particular.
Hope that helps. I'm sure somebody will have more to add.
All the best
Highplains
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Post by wnion on Feb 6, 2007 18:04:42 GMT -1
I have been told that a Wildlife Liaison Officer was seen walking the river banks with the EA bailiff one day last summer in the Dolgellau area .
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Post by kwilliams on Feb 6, 2007 20:02:09 GMT -1
I feel it neccessary to dispel a few misconceptions about Police Wildlife Liaison Officers. As Constables of Nth Wales Police and any other Police Authority, they have all the same powers as a water bailiff as laid down in Section 36 of the Salmon & Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975 and vice versa and any appointed Water bailiff has the powers of constable Deemed upon that officer for the purpose of enforcing statute fishery law and Agency Byelaws and that alone. The Agencys Special Enforcement Officers and the Environment Protection Officers have no powers of arrest when dealing with waste offenders or fly tippers. Sgt Pete Charleston, who I might add is a keen fisherman himself has a police colleague attached permanently to the EA at the Bangor Office and this fact was well documented a short while ago in the Daily Post revealing in a photograph the officer patrolling a river in a bright yellow Hi Viz Jacket. Training for police officers in the arts of Rural patrolling of riverbanks and lakes and provision of vital detection skills in identifying poacher activity is non existent ( nor does the EA I might add) so far to date as the training schools do not have those skills or instructors available
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Post by Bucko on Feb 7, 2007 8:53:51 GMT -1
Thanks for the information. I thought they might be a better option when poaching is occurring in my area as our EA bailiff covers a vast area alone and I'm unsure as whether he'd actually be allowed to approach anyone reported poaching, which can sometimes be quite blatant, during daylight and often targetting gravid fish.
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Post by petecharleston on Feb 7, 2007 11:37:02 GMT -1
I thought that my ears were burning. I am indeed the wildlife and environmental crime officer for North Wales a sergeant in the force for far longer than I would care to admit to. Based in Bangor and seconded to work with the Countryside Council for Wales. Always (well maybe not quite always) contactable on 01248 385784. I have a colleague working with EA Wales in Bangor looking at enforcement issues. I have followed the debates on poaching and EA's enforcement policy for some time and it does seem to me that the debate is one that we in the Police had several years ago over the issue of rural officers. It boils down to what do you do with limited resources. Poaching of salmonoids is in my book a wildlife crime and any crime is a matter that the Police can deal with if the case can be made out for doing so., That said we recognise that the real expertise in this area lies with the environment agency and their enforcement team. As such we will look to work in partnership with the agency to try and address identified problems. You may already see a theme emerging here to the effect that enforcement nowadays is all about targetted enforcement. The days of a Police officer walking the beat with a view of preventing crime have been shown to be largely ineffective albeit very reassurring to the public. It is for the latter reason that we do still continue to carry out preventative patrols. Enforcement is all about targetting offenders through the use of intelligence. My own view is that this the direction EA seem to be heading. If poaching is a problem then intelligence has to be collected in order to target individuals. Do we all contribute to this effort? I am confident that EA would welcome any information passed to them in relation to illegal activity no matter how inconsequential it may appear. Dont expect to see an immediate response on everything - you may be contributing to the bigger picture. Reports can be made in confidence or even anonymously or through Crimestoppers. I would have to admit that as far as I am concerned at present poaching of salmon/sea trout in North Wales has not been evidenced as a great problem. Why is this? Is it not happening or is it that it is happening but intelligence is not being received. A challenge there for everybody. I look forward to getting some feedback on this posting. Thanks to Keith for pointing out my interest in fishing,. I would have to say that I am not the hardy sole who prefers standing in rivers during the small hours to bed, neither am fortunate enough to have a rod on a decent salmon beat. I cannot however finish without referring to my hols in British Columbia last October,. Chum salmon in innumerable numbers 2 on the bank of 25 pound each before 9am not unusual, sturgeon in the afternoon up to 9 foot and 450 pound. (I have to admit but only because he may also read this that that one was my mates.)
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Post by shocker on Feb 7, 2007 12:18:20 GMT -1
bloody good on you mate ;)wether I agree with what you tell us about enforcement is beside the point,its just good (very good) to have some form of statement from someone involved that isnt loaded with buzzwords and doesnt sound like a whitewash
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Post by Bucko on Feb 7, 2007 13:08:57 GMT -1
Thanks for the prompt and concise reply Pete. I'm sure that strengthened relationships between anglers and wildlife and environmental crime officers would be mutually beneficial.
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Post by silverinvicta on Feb 7, 2007 17:14:35 GMT -1
Thanks for the information Pete,It's reassuring to know that at least there's is someone who understands fishers out there, and as Shocker says, speaks understandable English.
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Post by highplains on Feb 7, 2007 19:30:37 GMT -1
What a refreshing read! That post from Peter Charleston is probably the most coherent and accurate I have read.
Will you please all note that there is no perceived problem because the poaching is not reported. I believe the EAW are, at last, taking the 0800 number seriously and redirecting calls to a duty enforcement officer who will know what you are talking about and hopefully know the area you are talking about.
You will all be well aware that I have made my views on the EA's enforcement policy painfully obvious. However I would urge you all to start to use the 0800 number as soon as you become aware of any incidents.
I am also hopeful that the EAW are to revise their website to include information for the general public on what constitutes illegal activity on our rivers and in our estuaries and coastal waters. they have implied they might. We shall see.
Below is a paper we issue to all our members at the start of the season which provides some sound advice. You may also like to know that this was a joint production between Kieth Williams ex EAW and a certain Peter Charleston representing the police. Thanks to them both.
If you wish to have a word document copy of the following PM me and I will forward to a copy.
SIDE ONE
STOPPING POACHING IN THE VALE OF CLWYD
A QUICK GUIDE
Please read the full advice overleaf and keep a record of the details. PLEASE put the telephone numbers in your mobile phone NOW!
For some time now anglers have been expressing their concerns at the level of poaching on our rivers. The police are aware of the problem as are the Environment Agency, but they can do nothing without your assistance.
Please, please take an active part in protecting your fishing.
It is no good reporting an incident that happened yesterday, last week or last month!! Report it as soon as you become aware - in the way explained overleaf.
For your own safety it is well worth investing in a mobile phone, it enables you to contact others for help should you get into difficulties on the river or should you find somebody else on the riverbank in need of urgent help.
Please read the guidance notes overleaf and save the following numbers in your mobile phone memory.
Reporting by day: 0800 807060. Ask to be put through to Cardiff
Reporting by night: 0845 600 100 2 Police English language
Reporting by night: 0845 600 100 1 Police Welsh language
The police will not object to your using the 999 service if you experience any difficulties with the above.
Every fish taken illegally is lost to you as a legal angler and lost from the breeding stock.
Protect our rivers and protect the fish in them. It’s up to you!
SIDE TWO
SUSPICION OF POACHING.
ADVICE FOR ANGLERS (Provided by the Environment Agency and Police)
The Poaching of rivers is a criminal offence that affects your standards of sport immediately and in the future. In order that offenders can be effectively identified and dealt with by the Environment Agency Fisheries Enforcement Officers, there are certain actions that members can take to assist in the apprehension and detection of poaching. Please follow the advice below and act appropriately at the time should you observe poaching taking place! Take the following course of action at the time: do not delay.
1.DO NOT approach an incident and avoid confrontation – Observe and be as discrete as possible! 2.Note what the poachers are doing if possible – is he or are they using nets, gaffs etc. 3.Make a note of any vehicle(s), where parked, its registration number and colour. 4.Note how many persons you believe may be involved try you remember and later give a physical description, clothing warn etc. 5.Decide what the closest location is i.e. the nearest bridge or landmark. 6.Note which bank of the river they are on, are they walking upstream or downstream. 7.Have you seen any fish being taken, have they been concealed for later. 8.If you are with an angling partner and safety considerations allow, leave him or her to observe while you contact the Agency IMMEDIATELY on the HOTLINE number 0800 807060 which is shown on your rod licence and in the membership book and contact the Welsh Region Control room at Cardiff.
Report your information and ask that a Fisheries Enforcement Officer contact you by return of a phone call - Officers are on 24hr call.
Please remember: any Information received will be treated in the strictest confidence at all times Alternatively you can contact North Wales Police and report the matter to them on 999. Be available to officers attending your call and provide clear directions as to where you can safely meet them. Thank you for your help and co-operation for the future.
NOTE: You may wish to consider taking a mobile phone with you on your fishing trips, they can be a real help if you are ever in need of assistance, and they are a great help to report incidents, if you see poachers. If you have a mobile phone: put the hotline number into the memory now!
Reporting incidents days after they happen is not only useless but very frustrating to those trying to stop the poachers. We keep complaining, and in my view rightly so!! But we must try to do our bit to help.
Climbing off soap box!
Tight lines
Highplains
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Post by Hoppy on Feb 7, 2007 19:38:40 GMT -1
Great response Pete, i do think as with all things that a lot goes unreported! and this is the same with poaching.
The problem with poaching as opposed to other crime, ie. Burglary, Robbery etc is that the crime usually takes place in remote rural areas, away from the prying eyes of the public. It can also be covert in its very nature, poachers using the cover of darkness, or snatchers looking like run of the mill anglers fishing away. More to the point the majority of the public would be unaware of what poaching is!
My issue, is that if there were more people on ther ground, i.e bailiffs then perhaps a network of contacts could be made, and as such - the bailiffs get to know their rivers and their 'nominals of interest!'
However i am not so naive as to think that the 'workforce' issue is a problem, and that we have to do the best with what tools we are given, therefore at present intelligence led ops are perhaps the way forward. But i must stress that if there is little intelligence being received, then these intel ops will be totally ineffective - hence a vicious circle, requiring people at the sharp end to forge relationships with contacts, sources, call them what you will - so that the intelligence cycle can be fed with effective and reliable information.
As with most police work, the best way of gleaning intelligence and information is talking to people, a skill that i see is not trained these days. Gone are the tea stops, local pubs (Crying shame) where the local bobby could pop for a chat, and get some background as to what was going on, on their beat. I had to do it, and it wasnt too long ago. This is the way forward, speaking to people and listening. Im sure you would subscribe to this.
Anglers are a funny lot, they are worse than women for gossip (sorry for being non pc), just go to llanetyd Bridge at tea time in the summer, or Llangadog bridge, Whitemill car park etc etc - anglers will be there, moaning about fishing, dreaming of ther past - but more importantly gossiping about who's doing what and where and with whom. Not only will the EA get friends by listening, but they will also have a laugh!
Hoppy
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Post by rwgbridgend on Feb 7, 2007 20:16:51 GMT -1
Thank you for your reply pete!
unfortunately I am more cynical than most when it comes to EAW and the police playing down the problem of poaching!
Would you agree with my following points?
1) Poaching largely occurs in remote areas where EAW cannot rely on reports from fishermen and members of the public, especially in the spawning season when fishermen are not about
2) Most poaching prosecutions during the 70's and 80's occurred as a result of proactive bailiffs finding these crimes. They did not rely on calls from fishermen and members of the public.
3) What happens when police are taken off the beat?
I am sure (and in fact i know) that well respected former enforcement officer would agree with my points.
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Post by shocker on Feb 8, 2007 7:37:58 GMT -1
on their beat. I had to do it, and it wasnt too long ago. Whats this?Should we be calling you "coppy" not Hoppy?All those with guilty secrets beware!
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Post by Gwyniadun on Feb 8, 2007 8:50:56 GMT -1
What Pete forgets to mention is that in years gone by we did have some form of control and an information system....there were local PC's...and Dc's and Water Bailiffs in every area, who spoke to the public at large they knew their locals and their locals knew them, they knew when a stranger ventured into or onto their patch, trust prevailed , the finger was on the button so to speak, maybe it was not the best system...but a d**n side better than the one we have today.
The system broke down with the development of teams for this and that I was one who spoke up against the plans and changes from within.... the question posed to me by a senior officer when I said that the source of our information would diminish was...How do you quantify that?.... (the start of the performance indicator system) well Mr Charleston , Sir, never a truer word spoken, look at the mess we are in.
I know we are today living in a different world so to speak.
You are paying lip service to a problem you know that exists, whilst you do so with sincerity and dedication, at a guess, deep down you may have simmilar thoughts to mine on the issues....but it would not be politically correct for you to say so... that I respect , so I will say it for you, hope they do not freeze my pension.
Every Country Policeman in the past was a 'Wildlife Officer', today we have you and also someone who wears a yellow high viz jacket to patrol the rivers with the EA enforcement team in North Wales, Pete , you are scraping the surface.
Gwyniadun
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Post by highplains on Feb 12, 2007 20:48:05 GMT -1
I posted the comments about enforcement on the other sea trout forum, under the same head as this and was asked about the numbers of bailiffs in North Wales to which I replied. This was the response. I wondered if there were any views on the comments about the level of poaching. I have asked on the other site for other feedback that may broadly confirm the views expressed on this post.
Post begins
that dont seem a lot of Bailiffs,on the Coquet,Tyne and Wear they must be at least a good 40 of them, some full time some part time,some stay on their own rivers whilst some of them move from river to river,on the river Wear two years ago they even drafted bailifs in from the border Esk for some training!!!!.
The river Tees and its tributaries is governed by a different set of bailifs, the Northumbrian bailifs share this river with the yorkshire bailifs (the Pickering lot) .
The head fisheries inspector Mr Kevin Summerson told me last year that poaching was on the increase again due to commercial nets being "off" he said the price of wild Salmon had rocketed,makeing poaching seem atractive again to poachers,he also said that other criminals ie burgalrs,theives etc.. had turned to poaching as the sentances were less for poaching as to what they were for other criminal matters.
But when all is said and done the deterent still isnt there,a meesly fine wont detere poachers from poaching! even fines of a £1000 and over doesnt detere poachers,prison does detere poachers but the prisons are full to the brim with prisoners of a more sereous nature,so when up in front of a judge or magestrate in say Newcastle or Middlesbrough the chances are the poachers will walk away with a fine large or small.
It seems that in our area yer would get more of a fine for snatching fish rather than netting them,when netting poachers are usually charged with useing a fixed engine (net) and rarely does the poacher get done for more than two offences,but when snatching fish the poacher usually gets done with-failing to return a foul hooked fish,no license,useing treble hooks in the hours of darkness and fishing next to a named obstruction which hinders or retards the passage of migratory fish,and on the river Wear its the snatcher who gets more fish than the netter,unlike the river Tyne where a netter can get up to 80+ fish in as little as one hour in the right pool-its a shame really at the end of the day,but poverty is the cause of these activities in our area.
Once over poaching was at a acceptable level in the Northumbrian area,but these days they is no such thing as an aceptable level
Post ends.
Your comments will be gratefully received.
Tight lines
Highplains
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